episode 21-Procrastination: A Problem or a Response?

Summary: Mary has long term recovery and works as a LADC licensed addiction councilor for the center for drugs and alcohol and works as on-call chaplain. She leads spirituality groups with persons in recovery. Our discussion on procrastination is a response to stress because of a lack of clarity. It also is a response to anxiety and uncertainty, or not knowing the next steps to take.

Whether it is a response to calling a bill collector, having a difficult conversation, or cleaning house, we all fall into procrastinating something. When it becomes chronic then we may need professional help, but when it is a poor habit, we can correct it by awareness and taking a small action to get motivated. Being willing to look at the deeper reason we procrastinate is key.

[00:00:00] Vicky: Hello, Mary. Glad to have you here with me.

[00:00:04] Mary Carlson: Hi, Vicky.

[00:00:05] Vicky: Great to have you. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are?

[00:00:12] Mary: My name is Mary Carlson. I am born and raised in Cloquet, Minnesota and really haven't lived anywhere outside of this area. Right now, I am employed as a casual LADC, licensed addiction counselor for the center for drugs and alcohol. Then also, I work as an on-call chaplain at Essentia Health in Duluth; stay pretty busy. I'm also a woman in recovery, so taking care of my recovery is important to me. I am married. We have a little dog here, her name is Bailey. I have four children; three biological children and one bonus child, I call him. He's our oldest child. We have nine grandchildren. Stay really busy just with life stuff.

[00:01:05] Vicky: It sounds like it. Between counseling and your ministry, being a chaplain, that's interesting combination.

[00:01:15] Mary: It is. I've actually never worked as a counselor in a field having to do all the work that counselors do because they do a lot of paperwork. When I went to school to become a chaplain, I learned early on that in order to do any kind of a group in a treatment center that I had to be a licensed counselor. That's mainly why I got my license for counseling is because I couldn't do a group without one.

The groups that I've done with people for the last 20 years have been primarily spirituality groups, not religious groups; I like to make that clear. I even make that clear to my group because, unfortunately, it seems as if religion is brought up, there's usually an argument. The groups I do with people are more about finding what's in them, the worthiness in them, especially to remain-- like to find a place in sobriety, how to use that part as a strength to keep them going and recovery.

[00:02:17] Vicky: Wonderful. Our topic today is procrastination, is it a problem or a response?

[laughter]

I think for me it can be both, right? First, it's a response and then it becomes the problem, I think. What triggers procrastination for you do you think?

[00:02:38] Mary: Different things trigger procrastination for me and different times in life-- sometimes I'll procrastinate-- Well, I guess the biggest thing for me that causes me to procrastinate is not knowing what I'm doing, the fear of not knowing what I'm doing, not being really clear on it. For example, I knit and crochet. If I hit a part in the pattern that I'm not familiar with like I have to do this little mental gymnastics to get myself to pick it up and work through it. The funny thing is, once I get to it and work through it, it's fine.

Just getting myself to that place to actually pick it up because I just-- I don't know, there's something about my brain that wants to shut off if I'm not real clear. I've noticed that throughout different situations in my life too. If I'm going to walk into a situation and I don't have a real clear understanding of what's going to happen in that situation, it causes me a little bit of angst.

[00:03:38] Vicky: Yes, so connected to lack of clarity and maybe some anxiety around the uncertainty.

[00:03:46] Mary: Definitely, yes. I think maybe even a little deeper is thinking that I should be able to just do it all. I should just be able to whip through this knitting, it shouldn't have to be a problem that I have to pay attention.

[00:03:57] Vicky: That I think is an important point. We expect so much of ourselves.

[00:04:02] Mary: Yes.

[00:04:04] Vicky: What feelings cascade from procrastination?

[00:04:08] Mary: Mostly, I think dread. I think I could link exhaustion to that because every time that thought comes into my mind that I should be doing it and then I shut it down, it just makes me tired. The funny thing is, I can remember having a lot of procrastinating maybe looking for a different job or talking to somebody that I don't feel like talking to, so finding every single reason I can to put that off. Then I finally come to the point where I have to do it and I do it and I'm like, "Why did I wait so long?" You know?

[00:04:57] Vicky: Right. I love that dread feeling that we get, and it's an energy suck, isn't it?

[00:04:54] Mary: Yes, huge energy, for sure.

[00:04:59] Vicky: What do you observe about yourself and others when they're procrastinating?

[00:05:04] Mary: When I procrastinate, I feel like I get into a place where I just sit and spin. I may have one particular issue that I'm procrastinating on but it starts this cascade effect. It's almost at times can be paralyzing depending on what the situation is and how hard I am working on procrastinating because I think that is a conscious effort. It comes to mind, "I don't want to do it, I'm going to put it off to the side," and it keeps bouncing back and you keep putting it off and it bounces back.

[00:05:41] Vicky: That spinning, especially as it's something more important and it's looming larger and larger, then I start freezing up on everything. That physical response of fight or flight or freeze; for me, I'll start to be freeze. I think that's in response to, "I would flight if I could. Nowhere to run to, it's coming down the pipe and I see it coming. Oh my God, here we go." Do you find that you procrastinate less as years of your recovery have gone by, or is it still show up frequently?

[00:06:18] Mary: I think procrastinate less just because I've learned. In anything that we do, we recognize a pattern. If you start to pay attention-- or I should say, if I start to pay attention, I can usually recognize those patterns. I always tell people, "We don't change anything until we really see it." Sometimes it takes a while to see it, even if it keeps bumping me in the head, you know what I mean? Now I can recognize that as, "Oh, I'm putting something off," you know what I mean?

[00:06:52] Vicky: Label it correctly.

[00:06:54] Mary: Yes, "I know what this feeling is."

[00:06:57] Vicky: Yes, that goes along, I can so relate because it used to be just of a generalized feeling of, "Yuck," and knowing I was wanting to dodge something but not-- like you're saying no clarity of even what I was trying to avoid does like--

[00:07:14] Mary: Yes, or that you were avoiding something.

[00:07:16] Vicky: Right, and now to be able to label that.

[00:07:19] Mary: It makes me think of the fifth step because I've been talking a lot about the fifth step to people-- not the fifth step, six and seven. Step six and seven, you know the our character defects? So many times for me, my character defect is a reaction. It's like a survival skill to something that's   going on deeper within me. The trick is to recognize that I-- "Oh, yes, anger, sloth," those are a couple of my procrastination character defects. Then going, "Okay, what's deeper? What's deeper than that?" and to start looking a little deeper into what's going on.

[00:07:59] Vicky: The motivating factor to want to avoid in the first place. I am afraid of not being good enough? Am I afraid of rejection? Am I afraid of being punished because I made a mistake and that's my belief system, that mistakes get punished or?

[00:08:20] Mary: Yes, that deeper intrinsic stuff that we carry that we're not even aware of, it shows up as character defects.

[00:08:28] Vicky: Right, on the unconscious level. What tips do you have to deal with anxiety and fear before you're tempted to procrastinate? I'm sure like me you can start to sense it coming, like, "Oh, this is a pattern that I'd like you to talk about. I would normally procrastinate this,"   calling this bill collector or having this difficult conversation with my child or scrubbing the bathroom, which I hate, or whatever. [laughs]

[00:08:56] Mary: Whatever, yes. I think it comes down to that same tool again of recognizing that I'm doing it again. Then I guess the other part is being more gentle to myself because I have a tendency to be really cruel to myself because if I'm not doing it right, I'm usually some kind of an idiot, and I have a whole gamut of names I call myself; even becoming aware of that and paying attention to that.

[00:09:22] Vicky: You and I have been in recovery for a long time now. I was amazed in the last year in particular how much that judge still operates.

[00:09:32] Mary: Oh, huge.

[00:09:34] Vicky: Yes. The value of being able to identify it and talk it out with somebody else, to even say, "Hey, there you are. I see you, and I hear what you're saying, and thank you for sharing, but please be quiet now."

[00:09:48] Mary: Yes, "Go find something else to do." I think that that judge during this time especially this COVID time, lockdown, and just the last four years, that judge has becomes such a huge part of our culture because there's no gray area left in life anymore; it's either you're right or I'm right. There's no give or take under-- even trying to understand, even with the procrastination stuff is like having some empathy for yourself and some understanding that usually when we procrastinate on doing something, there's an underlying reason.

It might be that day that just that I'm being lazy. In a bigger scheme and a bigger picture, there might be something deeper in there that maybe needs some exploring, but to have that kindness to yourself and to recognize that. It's funny because I really-- and maybe I still hang onto that whole belief that life is just supposed to be so hunky-dory and everything's happy and I'm always smiling and life is good. The reality is, life is life and there's probably as much pain in this life as there is good. How do you walk through that, especially when we're in that place of being so cruel to ourselves? How do we have any kind of empathy or mercy for ourselves?

[00:11:18] Vicky: I think what I've learned and I think you have too, those are the times to reach out to a friend and get that support. You mentioned not being clear, I can't remember how many times I'd reach out to talk to my mentor and she would say, "Well, you don't have enough information yet," and I was like, "Oh, oh."

[00:11:40] Mary: That's the value of having a mentor, a sponsor, someone else in your life. I remember early on when Brené Brown wrote her first book, I went to one of her workshops, and this book was on shame. One of the things she talked about is that we should all have a shame buddy so that when that voice starts out in our head, we can have someone to check it out with who understands that voice.

[00:12:06] Vicky: That concept, that is so important, to be able to help you shift from, "Oh, this is who I am. Identify that I'm a bad person because shame takes over that way," to, "Oh, I'm experiencing shame and is it legitimate in this circumstance?"

[00:12:24] Mary: Right. That's another part, is understanding my shame language.

[00:12:28] Vicky: Shame will shut me down, I know that. I'll practice avoidance big time if I'm in my shame part.

[00:12:35] Mary: Right. Think about procrastination and-- especially like things like the bathroom, who loves cleaning the bathroom? You put it off, and then shame jumps in and says, like, "You lazy sloth." "No, I just don't want to do it today."

[00:12:51] Vicky: Not my cup of tea today. Our program talks a lot about taking action; to get unstuck, you just need to take action, and even a small step can lead to another step to another step. Is there any other tools that you use to get unstuck?

[00:13:06] Mary: I think that especially when I think about early on in recovery, and you just addressed it as having that other person to talk to, and I'm so grateful I had the people around me in recovery to listen to me while I muddled through all these beliefs I had. It took many conversations with many people listening to me talk about the same thing before I finally came to a conclusion on it. Even in procrastination, if it's something that keeps showing up that you're not doing, maybe have a conversation with somebody you trust, like, "Why am I so not willing to do this? What's holding me back?"

[00:13:50] Vicky: Resistance, identify it.

[00:13:53] Mary: This way I've learned, get through those things is to talk about them. That I don't have the answers in my head usually.

[00:14:00] Vicky: Right. I've noticed about myself that if I start pulling back and withdrawing, I might need a good cry about something. I don't like to be vulnerable, but it's amazing now I've recognized, "Call somebody, have that cry, get it over with it," it clears the energy out around whatever it is.

[00:14:22] Mary: So true, so very true.

[00:14:25] Vicky: Do you think perfectionism has any part in procrastination?

[00:14:30] Mary: I know it does in my procrastination because I think I talked about it earlier, thinking that like I had to understand everything and know how to do it before I even entered into whatever it was I was doing, like the pattern in the crocheting or whatever, that part that makes me think that, "I can't make a mistake. I can't do this wrong," huge. I think the two Ps probably are intertwined.

[00:14:55] Vicky: I think so too. Digging deeper we focus on the impact on our mental and physical health, what costs are we paying when we stay stuck and resist growing.

[00:15:06] Mary: The price we're paying is we don't go anywhere. I know for a woman living in recovery, it's real easy to go backwards by just avoiding that stuff. I can think about that in terms of relationships that I would get into that were so harmful, but my complete unwillingness and inability, and people would even get mad and say, "What are you staying there for?" My inability to see the reason that it was as bad as other people saw it, maybe that's it.

There's this disconnect, I think, especially in relationships. What I found for me is this was part of doing a fourth-step with my former marriage is that there were a lot of things I did to survive in that marriage and to keep marriage the way I thought it should be because I was married to this human being that I thought I saw all these qualities in; however, those qualities would never show.

His behaviors were completely contrast to what I thought I saw in him. In doing that, my sponsor had me write a letter to him, not to give to him but just write a letter to him, and identify every place in that marriage that I did things to cause the marriage harm. I think I was far enough along where I was able to really look and see. What I realized is the things that I expected him to be when he wasn't able to be that, were also very shaming to him and it led to a lot of his behaviors. Does that make sense?

[00:16:46] Vicky: It does.

[00:16:46] Mary: It helped me to forgive myself because I didn't see it in me, and it helped me to forgive him because I saw how painful that must have been to him.

[00:16:58] Vicky: You just touched on something for me that causes me still to procrastinate. I don't like endings, any kind of ending. If it's a season, summer is ending and it's coming to fall; if it's a relationship; a job. The idea that everything has its time and its place, man, I'll hang on as long as I can, that's important. As we know, my show's based on small changes that lead to big shifts. What small changes could you recommend for our audience to help them get unstuck?

[00:17:34] Mary: I guess the thing that's been most helpful to me is starting to pay attention to myself and my patterns. For example, in procrastination, if there's something that keeps popping up that isn't getting done, then it's time to stop and go, "Oh, okay, what's this about?" It may not be anything at all, really, but it might be something core to you. Until we start paying attention to ourselves and giving ourselves some time and some energy like we would put into our jobs, in our relationships and stuff like that, we'll never learn those things about ourselves. I think that's probably one of the biggest things I've learned to do is to start stepping back and go, "Okay, what is this?"

[00:18:16] Vicky: Take an inventory of it, really admit it. [crosstalk]

[00:18:19] Mary: Yes, and a kind inventory also; not just sit back and go, "Now I'm sitting here and not getting that done again. What's wrong with me?" It might not be anything wrong, it might just be-- who knows? To give ourselves that time.

[00:18:35] Vicky: Curiosity, I heard you say empathize with yourself, be curious about what is this, instead of blaming and shaming ourselves say, "What is there?" There might be something that-- your inner voice, I've found sometimes is telling me, "I was going to sign up for a class not that long ago. I had the link open I don't know how many times and didn't click and register. When I paused and said, "What's that about?" just like you said, I didn't really want to go into the class. If I would have been on automatic behavior, I would've--

[00:19:13] Mary: I used to do the automatic thing a lot, I used to just jump into stuff and not give it any thought at all.

[00:19:20] Vicky: Right, go from procrastination to jump both feet in, off we go.

[00:19:25] Mary: Then procrastinate because you jumped in.

[laughter]

[00:19:30] Vicky: Being present, today you mentioned that. Do you have any services or programs that you like to promote? I always give people an opportunity to promote if they have their own business, something that they want to have people participate in, or a Facebook group they'd love to have people join.

[00:19:49] Mary: No, not at this time. I don't have anything of my own.

[00:19:53] Vicky: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here, Mary. I've enjoyed our conversation. I really value your friendship.

[00:19:59] Mary: Thanks for inviting me.

[00:20:00] Vicky: I value that. I know we're going to collaborate and work together on some things in the future.

[00:20:06] Mary: Yes, so maybe I could promote those because I'm on the same page. I have as much respect for you as I heard you say you have for me. It's fun to be on this path together.

[00:20:20] Vicky: It definitely is, it definitely is. To me, that's really the value of recovery over time, is those relationships that we form with other people that uplift us, inspire us, and move us forward. I'm thinking not thinking that it has to be a big job or career or move us forward in--

[00:20:43] Mary: In life.

[00:20:44] Vicky: Yes. Being kind to ourself, being loving to our family, loving to ourselves.

[00:20:49] Mary: I think there's a part two about be it recovery, be it healing, whatever it is, but there's a common language that we speak.

[00:20:58] Vicky: Yes, most definitely. Thank you again for being here.

[00:21:04] Mary: Thank you.

[00:21:05] Vicky: To my audience, I will say thank you so much for being here with us and sharing today. If you enjoyed the show, please like and leave a review. I love to get emails from my audience, so keep sending them to info@[unintelligible 00:21:18].com. Tell me what matters to you because I want to provide content that makes a difference for you. As we leave, remember, you create your beautiful life one moment, one step at a time. Bye now.