episode 12 - Nonviolent Communication

Summary:

Kelly McGrath discusses Nonviolent Communication and how it benefits her life, her mediation practice, and her clients. Nonviolent communication is it’s a method of communication that was founded and created by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and it has four components. Observations, feelings, needs, and requests. Your observation versus your evaluations, so the things you would see if a video was being taken of something, that’s the observation, what actually occurred. And then we all put our spin on that in our mind, based on our past family of origin beliefs and other beliefs. So those are the evaluations that we make, or the judgements that we make about the observations.

Your feelings, and your feelings point to needs that are being met or not met, so feelings and needs. And those needs are universal all over the world, needs such as support and kindness and consideration, joy, beauty, things that everyone can understand. And requests. So, requests versus demands. A request is something you want someone else to do to get your need met, and if they decline that request, you’re okay with it. You know it’s a request if you’re okay with them saying no.

Welcome Kelly McGrath

Honestly Kelly I’m very impressed with your background and what you’re up to, so I’m going to let you explain because I want to be sure it’s highlighted in a way that really expresses what you do.

K: Well thanks and I’m very happy to be here. I’m a mediator and a peace-loving lawyer. I have my own practice Kelly McGrath Law, and we really guide people through the most challenging conversations of their lives, so they stay out of court. And I use all my background, so I’m an integrative lawyer, which means that I am very holistic, I bring all of my learning, not just my legal education, but all of my background with me and into my practice. So, I have education and skills in trauma and resilience and in nonviolent communication which is a way of showing up in the world that removes the judgment and evaluation and is based on universal human needs. So, I really treat my clients with all of my background, not just my legal expertise. And I do a lot of training on communication skills for parents and foster parents and teens and couples.

V: That’s fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So, our session today is on nonviolent communication. Would you explain a little of what that means?

K: Sure, it’s a method of communication that was founded and created by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and it has four components. Your feelings, and your feelings point to needs that are being met or not met, so feelings and needs. And those needs are universal all over the world, needs such as support and kindness and consideration, ah, joy, beauty, things that everyone can understand. And then your observation versus your evaluations, so the things you would see if a video was being taken of something, that’s the observation, what actually occurred. And then we all put our spin on that in our mind, based on our past family of origin beliefs and other beliefs. So those are the evaluations that we make, or the judgements that we make about the observations.

So, observations, evaluations, requests. So, requests versus demands.  What a request is. A request is something you want someone else to do to get your need met, and if they decline that request, you’re okay with it. You know it’s a request if you’re okay with them saying no. If you make a request, what you think is a request and someone says no and then you’re mad or something bad happens for the other person, you stonewall them, that that was really a demand.

So, talking about feelings and needs and faux feelings which are things that we were taught that we say are feelings that really have that layer of judgment and evaluation on them and blame someone else. And those are really not feelings. Feelings are sensations in our body, like joy, anger, frustration, and things like that. Faux feelings are things like when someone says, “I feel neglected”, Or “I feel abandoned.” Or “I feel disrespected.” Or “I feel abused.” Now, a disclaimer, I’m not talking about the actual physical abuse or neglect or abandonment that is real. I’m talking about when people say they feel this way.

V: Right

K: Those are faux feelings so those have that layer of judgement that someone else is to blame for that. For that “feeling”. So that’s what nonviolent communication is. It seems very simple, but the trick is to implement it in your life.

V: Absolutely. Because so often we have to know what we are feeling and a lot of us don’t want to admit our feelings because of past conditioning like you said.

K: Right, and really, we’re not trained to notice our feelings during the day, so if you don’t check in with yourself, say you’re going to a meeting and you don’t check in with yourself but you had a very challenging morning; the kids were late and your husband yelled at you and you’re driving to work and there is a lot of traffic and you get in this meeting. You’re going to show up in a way and say things maybe in a way that you are not in alignment with your values. So, if you take a moment before that meeting and check in with yourself, close your eyes, take a deep breath, a belly breath and, “What am I feeling right now – I’m really feeling agitated.” Okay, and then you think, your feelings point to needs getting met or not met so then you think “What am I needing right now?” And it might be something like ease or support. Once you can have that sense of clarity, it doesn’t make your problems go away, but it helps you ratchet that response down. Or that reaction down so that you can show up and respond in a way that you want to. So, then you can walk in that meeting and say okay, I’m going to focus on this meeting, you know.

So, I bring a lot of that into my practice. Because legal issues, they’re not about the legal issue, they’re about the emotions that are happening because of that legal problem. That’s why people hire lawyers or mediators, to help with their issue so that their emotions, so they can have ease in their life.

V: I think it is so true that we don’t practice knowing what we need, and then, I have been conditioned over my career that you just show up and do, you don’t have emotions, you don’t have needs, you just align yourself to what the expectations are. So, there is a lot of conflict in the workplace that just doesn’t ever get dealt with or swept under the rug and it just brews.

K: Um hum, and from a bottom-line perspective and the best thing an employer can do is really learn and get some professional education and mentorship in communication and conflict resolution. Because you’re gonna lose the good people, and you’re gonna keep people that are causing problems if you don’t know how to manage that. And also like you said, you can build up resentment, people can feel like they are not heard there, so it’s really important. Actually, the CEO of Microsoft, when he came in as CEO, he gave everyone Marshall Rosenberg’s book. Everyone in top leadership. “Nonviolent Communication the Language of Life.” He really felt that that soft skill is one of the most important things for a successful business.

V: I absolutely agree. What I have seen often is workplace bullies don’t get reigned in, they leave a wreckage behind, and nobody is really able to resolve that situation (laugh) So, I agree,

K: I totally agree. And you know the workplace bully is, often times that person was victimized.

V: Right

K: In their past. So, you have to know that okay, that person probably has some needs that aren’t being met. And you know if they are a star performer, it’s worth your business, it’s worth it for your business to go ahead and manage that. So, bring them in and have a conversation with them. And the conversation is observational – “When you did this, said this, or acted in this certain way,” without any judgement, just what happened, I felt, insert the feeling, “frustrated, sad, angry, confused, because I have a need for, and then it’s, communication, clarity, support, kindness, whatever that need is. And then the request. And the request is who will do what by when. My request is put your complaints in an email to me so that we can talk about them at an assigned time, rather than, you know, whatever the observation that they did was, talk at the water cooler about it. So that is a simple way that businesses can keep the best people and also help connection between the employees, and the employees and management.

V: And I think that productivity is only ever increased when people feel that they are on the same page, they feel safe in their work environment, they feel heard like you said, they feel like they are a contribution, so allowing somebody to…and I love what you said, that that person they are not bad or wrong by being a bully, although we think that bully means sometimes bad or wrong, it’s just the method of communicating that might not work very well. So, to reframe it and say this person has needs also and let’s reframe this interaction for a way that works. That takes some practice.

K: Yeah, I agree, you know we all need mentorship, and we all need skill building our entire lives. And communication and conflict resolution skill building most of all because that impacts every area of your life, personal and professional.

I have a background in restorative justice too, which is a way of dealing with harm and crime that brings the parties together and asks four questions: What happened? Who was impacted and how? What needs to be done to make things as right as possible? And what needs to be done to make sure this never happens again? And that combined with NVC, nonviolent communication is just a way of managing your team, it’s problems and miscommunication that doesn’t push blame and shame on anybody. It focuses on the observation of what happened. Everyone was there, everyone knows what happened. Let’s put it out here, let’s talk about what can be done and make things as right as possible.

You can’t always make things completely right, go back to how it was before but you can make things as right as possible, and people can have the opportunity to feel heard. One of the aspects of restorative justice is that even the offender, the offender, whoever the offender is, can repair harm if they admit accountability and want to make things as right as possible. And no one wants to be thought of in their worst moment of their life, you know. We all make mistakes, even really bad ones or hard ones, challenging ones. But there are things that can be done to make things as right as possible and to change and grow, even that person, like that workplace bully.

V: I think that would really help families also. That concept, because so often in a frustrating – I had some frustrating experiences with my own children, and you throw your hands up in the air and you say I just don’t know what to do. (laughter) And that’s probably the real honest statement. (Yeah) and then we grab for something that doesn’t work very well, like the scolding or I’ll tell you what to do. (laughter)

K: Well yeah, we often go back to our family of origin training, unless we get new training. And you know, even then we, we don’t rise to the level of our expectation we fall to the level of our training. So, it’s about that. But you know in that case, and I do work with not only couples, but parents and children, especially teens, using nonviolent communication and I volunteer with foster teens and foster parents when there is about to be a placement disruption or, basically that means the teen is about to be moved to a new foster home. And I use nonviolent communication with them, and I don’t say use it, I practice it with them and help model that for them.

But I think the training there teaches you that when you feel, when you notice your feelings as a parent, you’re noticing your anger level rising or like tingly sensations, or your shoulders getting tight or you jaw getting tight, when you practice NVC you notice those sensations. So, once you notice those sensations you don’t just automatically react to the situation, you know that you need empathy first. So that’s when you need to walk away and say, “I’m feeling upset right now, let me go think about things and come back and talk to you.” Because your ultimate need is connection with your child, that’s the ultimate goal, and of course mentorship for them to be an autonomous independent person. But, people, when people are upset, especially parents, they want to try to solve the problem quickly. The problem they need to solve is to get clear about what their need is. (yeah) And get clear about what their feelings are. And there is a request they can make of their child.

V: And I love that – to make a request, because as a parent I was trained to be authoritarian, (yeah), and we know it didn’t work real well when my parents were authoritative, but let’s bring it out because it’s the tool of choice, right?

K: It is, and it’s the easy one and it’s, you know why it’s because - at that moment we are lacking personal power or feeling a need for personal power because we’re not sure how to get out of this situation. So, the easiest thing to do to grab that personal power is to force someone to do something. So, yeah, we don’t, people are happier when we do things with them rather than to them or for them. (yeah) So that’s what NVC helps, it helps you get clear about what your needs are, what your feelings are and if there is a request you can make. And why.

I tell this story about, and it’s a fictional story, but about my husband, asking him to take the trash out. And I come home I see the trash is not taken out so I’m like ugh, can you take the trash out? Yeah, I’ll take it out. And then I come back a few hours later and it’s still overflowing. So, one way I can handle this is to start having judgmental thoughts. Like, I’m always the one that does everything around here, he never listens, and he doesn’t pick up after himself and all this. And then I go yell. Right? Which can ruin the whole night. And it doesn’t meet my ultimate need of connection with my husband.

But, if I feel the rising sensation and I am astute enough and aware enough to say “Oh, I’m pretty upset about this.” Okay, I’m going to take a minute, my need is order. Right, that’s really my need, order, beauty, in this situation, and consideration, right. And if I can feel that trigger go down a little bit I can also then, think what is he needing right now, what is going on for him right now that he didn’t do that for me right away? So, a few things, it can be like he just got a new book that he’s reading and his need for joy is a little bit above my need for order. And did I really tell him when I wanted it out? I didn’t, so I wasn’t clear. Like, “Hi, can you take the trash out within the next hour?” That would have solved the problem. So, it’s not that he is lazy, and he doesn’t want to help out, it’s that I didn’t give him clear instruction, I didn’t ask for what I needed fully. And so, he is sittin  there “Hey, I’m going to take the trash out later after I read this chapter.”

So instead, I could go and say, “Hey, You know I really would love the trash to be taken out now because of my need for order and I’m about to sweep,” or whatever. “Could you just take a minute and take it out right now, or within the next half hour after you finish this chapter?” That, that evening is completely different than the other one where I yelled at him, right? (yeah) And it’s because I took a moment, and I didn’t show up with an automatic reaction to something. And you know and I didn’t assume, you know.

So, it’s been a lifelong practice for me, and I’ve been a practitioner, well, I say life long, I’ve been a practitioner for about thirteen years of nonviolent communication but very deeply practicing it and using it in my practice. So, it’s life changing, and I really recommend anyone to take a class in nonviolent communication. It will change your life and how you show up. (yeah)

V: I love that part about requests too because in the story that you shared, if you went in and you said to your husband and said I really need you to do this now, and they said no, I’m sorry I can’t, then the idea to be okay with that - goes back to ownership too. It’s my need for order, right? (Right, yeah.) I made the request.

K: Yeah, exactly, and it could be something like, “You know what I really don’t want to take it out now because I just got this new book, and can I read three chapters and then take it out?” “Sure.” And now in my head it’s like okay it’ll probably be out before the end of the night. (yeah) And then I walk away. You know, and we’re good. (laughter) Connection remains.

V: So, when you’re emotionally charged like that it’s really hard to set that aside, I think that is one of the elements that would take some self-awareness and willingness, right?

K: For sure and the nonviolent communication its more difficult the closer you are to someone. Because you care so much and there is so much history there. So, practicing it in my practice is much easier than at home when I’m triggered or something like that. You know and when you’re triggered you have the fight, flight, or freeze response, it’s a biological response. And if you don’t feed that story, that, whatever that automatic story is in your head, that automatic judgment, if you don’t feed that, in 90 seconds it can go away. So just know that if you don’t feed that by keep spinning that thought in your head, that judgement, like Oh, he’s lazy, I have to always do everything. You stop that, you can respond and show up in a way that is in alignment with your values. (yeah)

V: And it also then being, is being aware of your values, your needs, your feelings. So, most of us are taught growing up, I don’t think I’m being too general, that none of that is important. (laughter)

K: Right, and it’s really one of the most important things in your life.

V: Oh, absolutely. (right)

K: The authenticity about how you actually are feeling and what your needs are. And how to get them, you know that’s how I think everyone should be taught. It’s helped my clients so much. Oh my gosh. It’s just so beneficial, because they all get it. The teens get it, the adults get it, once you have the experience of really feeling fully heard about how it is for you and what your needs are, your deeper needs and being able to express those to someone…it’s just very gratifying. We never fight on the need level. As you can imagine, no one is going to fight over like “Oh, you need consideration, why would you need that?” You know, we all know we need joy, we need support, we need kindness, we need consideration. Um, effectiveness. We only fight over the strategy of how we get those needs met.

So, like in my example, my strategy to get order was to ask him to take the trash out, and that was my strategy, but I didn’t do it well because I didn’t ask with specifics. And his strategy to get his needs met was to read because his need was for joy and for relaxation. So, like yeah, we’re always fighting on the strategy level. And if we can understand that and get down to the need, we’re like, okay, you want joy and relaxation I really want order, what can we do about this. We can be on the same page. And we can move to walking together. (yeah)

V: I really appreciate that example and the picture in my mind of cooperation and setting aside what I think I know about somebody, because I’ve been married for 22 years and sometimes, I can think “Oh I know what he’s thinking, I know what his motives are.” “I know what’s really going on here.” (right) And stopping to recognize that he has needs that he’s fulfilling in his way, and he has a right to that. (laughter)

K: It’s about the relationship and I have a couple’s mastermind coming up in July that we’re launching. But part of that is exactly what you said, it’s those automatic thoughts and judgments about your partner in close, and you know, you could be right, some of the time, but it’s still not, it’s still not your role to be a mind reader, or to be an assumer. To be making assumptions. What you need to be doing is verifying.

Like, “Hey, I’m thinking that I have a thought that you might be feeling angry. Can we, I want to check in with you.” So being compassionately curious is what will lead you to more connection, not assuming, oh I’ve been with him fifteen years I know exactly what he’s thinking. (laughter) you know that’s bull shit quite frankly. (it is) You have not verified that.

V: And with your kids too, if you torn that around, or with your boss, or your co-worker, wherever you implement that strategy. A lot of my clients have a real hard time speaking their truth, especially in the workplace, so to be willing to spend time learning what their needs are their feelings and take these risks. Can you paint a picture of what they might be, what the cost might be for them if they don’t?

K: Yeah, well for sure unhappiness, health issues. I myself had some health issues at my old job, they were very resistant to change and support. But um yeah, I think that if you have these skills and you can really be observational about not only what happened but what you need to happen, what you need to have happen, um, you take the judgment out of it. So, a lot of people put their walls up if they feel judged, or if they feel like I’m being judged because I’m a bad manager, or I didn’t do this or that. And really if you can be observational and say “When you, At the meeting today when you called on me without letting me know that I needed to provide my numbers at the meeting I felt embarrassed and I felt unsure of myself. And I really you know I really have a need for competence and clarity and I’m wondering if before the meeting next we can go over my numbers or is there a list of things I need to be prepared for?”

And that type of thing, even in the most resistant manage, defensive manager, you’re not calling them a bad manager, you’re telling them what you felt like, what your needs are and making a very clear request.  So that is the key for NVC, using it in the workplace. Effectively, is to make these observational requests, requests based on observation and what your needs are. (yeah)

V: It takes, ah, I get a sense of empowerment and taking away, like a game of chess, like, I’ll make this move, and they make that move and then I’ll make this move, and nobody is talking to each other. (laughter, right) to see what the impact is. And we think well that move didn’t work so I’ll try this and maybe like the water cooler, we go over there and chat up somebody else about how bad it all is and how ‘they’ are so bad and yeah. (yeah, right and you’re both making a story about the other person)

V: When there is conflict, we often come from a place where somebody has to win, and somebody has to lose, and this method seems to put it on the playing field where both people can win.

K: Absolutely, because part of it is, I want to get my needs met but I want to do it in a way that you get your needs met too. (yeah) You know there is a lot of different conflict styles out there. And a lot of us are conflict avoidant because we don’t have the skills, that’s why, not because we don’t want to resolve the problem. And a lot of people come from a place of thinking I’m a compromiser, we’ll figure it out, we’ll compromise. But let me say that if you feel that compromise is good, I want you to think about this: When you compromise, you are taking your dreams and you’re putting half of them on the table before you walk into the room. You’re deciding that your dreams are not worth asking for. So, I really want to get people away from thinking that compromise is a good thing. Collaboration is what we need to be doing. Collaborating. What is your dream, what is my dream, we can both get our dream met, let’s work on this? And that’s what I want to see people do for, to learn about complex, is to be a collaborator.

V: I love that. (laughter) I really do. It just feels so empowering and free and nurturing and supportive.

K: Yeah, it’s definitely the world I want to live in.

V: Me too!

K: Yeah, that’s why I do this work and now I’m getting into a lot of training, which just kind of organically developed but there’s a need. And I love that there is a growing hunger for it. Because that gives me so much hope for our world. For peace in our world, and I believe that peace, world peace is possible. In my lifetime. It’s a decision we all have to make, individually to learn about conflict resolution and how to show up in a way that is connecting. With your own sense of self and with the other person.

V: I can sure see your passion. And feel it, across the line. So, my show is about tiny changes Big Shift, if somebody is not versed in this at all what are some small things that they could do to start their path?

K: Yeah, Oh, there are so many. So, one of the things that you can do is, even if you want to set a timer on your phone for periodically you know four times during the day, when that timer goes off just close your eyes and say, “How am I feeling right in this moment?” How am I feeling in this moment? Am I feeling calm, sad, annoyed, frustrated, confused, you know, what are those feelings? And just notice, so just start noticing. That is important, that’s the step one, that helps you show up in a way that you want to show up, in an intentional way. That helps you show up in alignment with your values, how you want to show up in the world and helps prevent you from reacting automatically to some stimulus.

That’s number one, then I think of course the next layer is hum…I’m feeling sad or frustrated, what’s that about? Oh, someone cut me off in traffic, that’s why I’m feeling frustrated. Okay, alright, what’s the need under that? A lot of times it’s consideration. (yeah) Pro tip! (laughter)

Talking to you all you people that have dogs that are barking in your neighborhood. That’s another one. Anyway, just noticing your feelings during the day. Getting into a habit of noticing your feelings. You’ll start noticing the sensations too and then it’ll come more easily to you. There is a list, you know I sent you a list of feelings and needs, but not all of the feelings and all the needs, but it’s a good start for people who haven’t been taught to look at their feelings.

I work with a lot of lawyers and there’s many times when the lawyers like, “I don’t know, I don’t know what I’m feeling.” And it’s like well okay, look at this list. And the list is very nuanced too. Not just mad, it’s mad, angry, frustrated, irritable (laughter) and a lot of times when they look, they can pick out a feeling. (yeah)

V: Well, I’m really fascinated with this whole topic, and I really, really, really appreciate you being here today. What do you have coming up; you mentioned a workshop coming up for couples? Do you want to say the dates and the specifics, how somebody could get in touch with you if they had an interest in that?

K: Yeah, there’s a couple’s mastermind coming up July 10, and it’s 9am to 1pm eastern time by zoom. And you can show up as a couple or you can show up individually, you don’t have to be married, they can be for non-traditional couples too, anyone, any human. And you’re going to learn a lot of these skills, actually we’re doing a lot of NVC. NVC is a sixteen-hour training so I’m giving you some tools and introduction on how you can use these right now in your relationship and then encouraging you to take a longer class because I believe in mentorship and professional growth training.

So yeah, that’s July 10th and we’re limiting it to only 20 participants. 20 couples or individuals. And that’s going to be $497 and it has a bonus of one hour working one on one with me. (Kelly) So after the training you get an hour, the couple or the individual, where we go over the training and you get to talk to me about your specific questions or situation. And I’m adding this because I know that we often go to workshops and then we don’t implement well. (right) Over time, and I want these skills to be part of your routine as a couple, how you treat each other, how you show up for yourself.

So, I’m doing that. It also comes with a 100% guarantee, if you don’t find value in it, I’m happy to give you your money back although I’ve never had to do that because we know these skills are needed and it’ll add ease to your life, and joy to your relationship. So, I’m doing that, and I still have my practice, my mediation practice. So, I work with businesses and individuals to help resolve their issue out of court. Work one on one, and having this facilitator, I’m a third-party neutral facilitator, I don’t act as an attorney when I mediate.

And I help them bridge that communication gap. And have a one-on-one session with each person beforehand so they can have the experience of feeling fully heard and talk about the challenges and their hopes and how they want to show up at mediation. And it gives me such a great background to develop the right agenda to make the most efficient use of time. So, I’m doing that, and I have that couples program coming up and I’m just so thrilled about it. And they can reach me through my website, kellymcgrathlaw.com. Or email me: [email protected] Or my phone number is 850-273-8698.

V: Perfect, I’m going to bring up a link because you mentioned your materials that you gave me for a free gift, and I want to make sure that I say this right.

K: Yep, you’ll have a feelings and needs sheet so you can work off of that, and there are a few other things in there too, but we talked about those too. And you know you can just talk to your spouse or your partner or your child and say, “I’m feeling frustrated” and hand them the list, and say, take some needs guesses, what do you think I’m needing right now? (yeah) They don’t have to say anything else but maybe you’re needing support or maybe some consideration. And it’s like yeah, okay, yeah.

V: Or connection or belonging. (right)

V: I think the easiest place for people to find that is https://linktr.ee.com/vickidawn.  I’ll put the link for that podcast free gift on that link. And as we wrap up do you have any follow up comments?

K: I just want to encourage people; you can grow in your skills with communication, and you can grow with your skills with conflict resolution. You just need to seek out some mentors and some good workshops, but everyone can. And let’s do that, let’s do that for each other, for the people we love. We can resolve our conflicts peacefully.

V: Yeah, I appreciate that a lot. And I think this seems so simple when you explain it and as I was reading about it before our show today, and it seems so simple, why isn’t this taught in school?

K: Yeah, well you know it’s great to know that it is now being taught in school. My mentor, Dr. Cindy Bigbie has a method called the Bigbie method where she’s teaching teachers and students this in schools.

V: Oh, that’s beautiful.

K: Having the next generation come up learning how to really talk from the heart. I have so much hope for our future. I really do.

V: I do too. Well thank you so much for being here and sharing with us today. And for the audience, if you like our show, please forward it to your friends and family, ask them to listen in. Subscribe, if you like it leave a review and I’m open to emails from my listeners – [email protected]. Send your concerns or questions or things you’d like to hear on our show.

You can join my Facebook group – creating connections, you can find it on the link tree I mentioned.

As I say goodbye, remember you create your beautiful life, one moment one step at a time.