390 | Debating the Problems and Promises of the Public Defender National Workload Study Part 1 w/John Gross

Author: Hunter Parnell
Published: Tue 02 Sep 2025
Episode Link: http://sites.libsyn.com/387569/390-debating-the-problems-and-promise-with-the-public-defender-national-workload-study-part-1-wjohn-gross

Today, Hunter hosted a debate between Professor John Gross and Professor Bob Boruchowitz about the Public Defender National Workload Standards. Back in the spring of this year, John penned an article about some of the methodological and pragmatic issues with the National Workload study. Meanwhile, Bob has been working in Washington for decades to bring meaningful, enforceable workload standards across the state. Today, Hunter spoke with both of them to hear each side of this debate and to try and figure out the best way to use the national workload standards.

Guest:

John Gross, Professor of Law, University of Wisconsin School of Law

Bob Boruchowitz, Professor of Law, Seattle University School of Law

Resources:

John’s Article

https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/the-problems-with-the-national-public-defense-workload-study/

John’s Faculty Page

https://law.wisc.edu/profiles/john.gross

Bob’s Writings

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/wa-works-toward-easing-public-defender-shortage-but-more-must-be-done/

https://law.seattleu.edu/media/school-of-law/documents/faculty/publications/boruchowitz/2025_01_RevisedStandards.pdf

Other Responses to John’s Article