If it’s illiberal, is it democracy?

Europe is increasingly divided: between the frugal North and the Club Med South; between the illiberal East and the progressive West. In many ways, the latter is more profound at a time when democracy is under pressure almost everywhere. Leaders like President Orban of Hungary and Poland’s Jarosław Kaczyński, who founded the ruling Law and Justice Party, are trying to change not only their own countries' laws and institutions, but to shift the center of European social and political gravity to the right.

How likely are they to succeed? Will they change only their national realities or will they make changes on the larger European or even global stages? Do Hungary and Poland really belong to the Europe of the early 21st century?

Our guests in this week's New Thinking for a New World podcast are engaged in this conflict. Both are lawyers; Zuzanna Rudzińska-Bluszcz serves at Poland's Office of the Commissioner for Human Rights and András Léderer is the senior advocacy officer of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee. They both also recently completed the Obama Foundation’s inaugural Emerging Leaders in Europe Program. Listen as they discuss the profound conflicts that will shape their countries—and perhaps Europe—for decades to come.