Shepherding a Small Group

Kay >> Hi. I’m Kay Daigle. Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast. Today I am talking with my friend Lynn Hoffmann. Welcome, Lynn.

Lynn >> Well, thank you, Kay. I’m so glad to be here.

Kay >> Well, we are so glad to have you today. I’ve been looking forward to this and a lot for a long time in fact, I’ve been trying to get Lynn on here for a long, long time. And I think we finally hit on some things she wanted to talk about. So here we are we’re going to talk today about leaders as shepherds. We’re going to be talking about shepherding small groups. And really shepherding is an aspect of discipleship. And so that’s where discipling people were shepherding them.

And so let me just tell you a little bit about Lynn, but you can find more about her on our website, BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. Go to the dropdown menu where it talks about the “About Us” and look under video podcast contributors and you’ll be able to read all the details about Lynn and all the things that she’s done. But I will tell you that she’s had years of involvement in recovery ministry. She taught she led groups, she’s mentored women, and she wrote her own book that she began using Steps into God’s Grace.

And we’ll let her talk about that at the end of our podcast a little bit. Now, she’s the certified spiritual director so she’s done a lot of different things. And I know that she’s going to be a blessing to all of you out there. Since we’re talking about shepherding, I thought we would just talk for just a few minutes about sheep a little bit and shepherding since it’s used so much in the Bible and there’s a reason because we are like sheep in a lot of ways.

And I’m not going to talk about how we’re like shape, but I’m going to talk about shepherding a little bit So I thought we would look at a few scriptures. I’m not going to really open all these and read the whole thing for you right now. But I would encourage you to read back through Psalm 23. I’m sure everyone is familiar.

“The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want He makes me dwell down in green pastures. He restores my soul.”

And all of that is the wonderful Psalm. It’s one of my very favorite. So I think it’s probably on everybody’s top ten list, at least of passages. So we learn a little bit about a shepherd as we look at Psalm 23.

It says that the shepherd thinks of what the sheep need, what kind of food they need. He leads them there. He protects them from their enemies. And he’s a companion. He helps heal them. And we see all of that in Psalm 23.

And then in John 10, Jesus calls himself The Good Shepherd, and in John 10:1-16, I encourage you to read the whole thing, but what we see there is he talks about that he knows the sheep so well. That he knows them by name and that they follow him because they trust him and they know him. He cares for them and says, “I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.”

So there’s a sacrificial aspect to being a shepherd. There’s giving up some things because of the of the sheep under you. And certainly we aren’t saying small group leaders need to be crucified in any way, but we’re talking about just you give up your own time, you give up your own things that you might want to do so that you’re providing and caring for your sheep.

And then the last place that I want to look at is actually the longest. And it is back in the Old Testament in Ezekiel 34. The whole chapter is about sheep and shepherds and basically God is calling out the spiritual leaders in Israel for not taking care of the people of Israel. So the whole chapter is about that. But I thought I would read verses 13 through 16 because it sort of summarizes some of the things that the shepherds do for the sheep.

So verses 13 through 16. God talks about the fact that since the shepherds have not taken care of the sheep, he will tend them, he will take care of them himself, he will become their shepherd. And he says, “I will bring them out from the peoples, gather them from the countries and bring them to their own soil. I will shepherd them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the land.

“I will tend them in good pasture, and their grazing place will be on Israel’s lofty mountains. There they will lie down in a good grazing place.” We saw in Psalm 23 that it talks about the sheep lying down in the presence of the shepherd and it reminded me a lot of Matthew 11:28-31 Jesus says, “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden I will give you rest.” He gives us rest. We lie down in his presence so good shepherd helps the sheep be at rest be peaceful.

“I will tend my flock and let them lie down. This is the declaration of the Lord.” And then here is the summary. “I will seek the lost, bring back the strays, bandage the injured, and strengthen the weak.”

So those are some of the qualities and characteristics of the shepherd, some of the of the areas of need of the sheep the shepherd cares for.

So Lynn, in light of all of that and in light of all of your experience, how can a leader care for her heart? Small group as a shepherd does direct just as is your at the meeting. How does that translate into caring for the women who are sitting there with you?

Lynn >> You know, I think that there are a lot of things that we can talk about, about how you can care for them. And I think that before we even maybe discuss that, I’d like to just kind of just talk about why we’re in a small group to begin with, because generally speaking, I don’t know about you, but I think that many people that I talk to are in small groups because it has generally been kind of expected by the people in their church. That part of your spiritual growth includes being in a small group. So we have created a lot of small groups and we have a lot of people who are leading small groups. But I can’t I don’t know that I would say that all the people that are in small groups and leading small groups are really been trained to be a leader and what they’re really going to encounter leading a small group.

So I’m really excited about having the opportunity to talk about that because for me, I realize that I talk to a lot of women who are very frustrated by being in a small group that they’re doing it because they feel like it’s something they’ve been called to do. And it’s part of their Christian life is to be in a small group.

But many of them are just very frustrated by the whole process. They’re not necessarily finding it meaningful or they’re not necessarily wanting to try to make time for it. And they’re not really sure what the purpose is for doing this, other than this is what I’m supposed to do.

So I think that my frustration and my passion in this has been more related to I keep hearing all these people telling me about this and saying, “Well, I understand that because I remember being in small groups and doing the same thing, getting in a small group because it’s what was expected.

And yet feeling like the leader wasn’t sure what they were supposed to be doing that we were kind of following this rote thing, okay, this is what you do in the small group. You know, there’s going to be some time of worship, some time Bible study, some time of prayer. You know, maybe we’ll share a meal together. I mean, there was this whole litany of things that we were to do, but I can’t necessarily say that I felt like we were actually coming together as a group of people and actually growing together spiritually.

And yet, I think that that’s the main purpose of the group, right? Is to really because we do grow in community. To really recognize that this is where we are going to grow as we get to know each other better, as we wrestle together, as we, you know, discuss the difficulties in life as well as celebrate things.

But that we’re coming together because we are challenged in talking about the tension between living our Christian life in the world and the tension that’s created before those two. So it really does create, you know, a lot of responsibility for the leader to recognize that this is a challenge of what’s happening within the people who are coming to my group.

And so in addition to us participating in a Bible study or participating in some time of worship or some time of prayer, that a big part of our time together should be devoted to actually connecting with each other, because that’s what people are really looking for. They can go and listen to a great podcast. They can go hear a great sermon, they can go. You know, they’re getting a lot of their, quote, spiritual teaching needs met, but not necessarily feeling like they have a close community of people to share that journey with.

So I think that recognizing that is the struggle within our small groups and I really think that it means that we need to kind of look at, okay, what is happening in our groups differently?

And I honestly hadn’t experienced any kind of groups that were different until I went to recovery. And as a matter of fact, I remember one of the first small groups that I was in, I’d only been in it about, I don’t know, maybe six months. And then the leaders announced one day because it was the same people who led every week.

Then the leaders announced one day, okay, well, we’re not going to be meeting anymore because we’re changing churches and we’re not going to be leading this small group anymore. And it was the first time any of us in the group had heard that this was even going to happen.

And we were all just very confused. I thought we were in a small group to be connected to each other and to know each other and to, quote, do life together. And I don’t see how this represents that. Where I don’t even know what is happening in the lives of the people that I’m living with and doing life with.

So when I went to recovery are really recognized that they did groups differently and that there were a number of things about that, you know, that were different. But the main thing was they were trying to foster connection.

And I think that that’s one of the things that it’s not that we’re not trying to foster connection. I think that the reality is we just don’t know how to foster connection we haven’t maybe been in a group where we’ve experienced it. We’re only doing what we know to do. And you know, people have been in small groups before, so okay, now I’m going to lead one. Well, that’s great, but do I really know how to lead and shepherd a group?

Kay >> Well, you know, I think that a lot of people are just asked to lead small groups. And I think in many cases the leader is just desperate to find somebody to do it, and so they tell them, all you have to do is go through these questions and all you have to do is just make sure everybody talks and that’s it.

Lynn >> Right? Right. Exactly. And I don’t think that that’s it. And I think that we have to be more intentional. There’s a lot more things involved in leading a small group than we’ve experienced or have been showed how to do. And I feel sad about that because I know that our leaders are —they have a heart for the people and they so want their groups to do well and to be successful and the people to want to come.

But the reality is we’re dealing with people who are very busy, especially where we live here in Dallas. And so people want something. They’re not going to come if it’s not meaningful, if it’s not life-changing, if it’s not helping them connect with others and connect with God in deeper ways.

Kay >> Yeah, I totally agree with that, which is one reason I liked the picture of shepherding because it tells you there’s more to it than just reading some questions or sharing prayer requests or you know, whatever, whatever you’re doing.

Gary and I were in a small group together for a couple of years, two or three years, and everyone was very nice while we were there, you know, very nice couples.

You know, we studied the Bible some, and we had some just general conversations. But we never talked about the reality of who we were and what we were doing and how we were growing in their faith in any way. We really knew nothing about anybody’s. I mean, there were exceptions to this, but most of the time we didn’t know what was going on in their lives.

Lynn >> Right. Yes, I think that’s a perfect example. And so was just like you start coming away with a sense of what are we doing? You know, I mean, I’m just being showing up as a sane person. Everything’s fine. I’m okay. My life is good.

You know, I’m just going to have a meal, a laugh and, you know, learned some things about the Word, but we’re not necessarily applying them to our lives within the group in a way of, okay, how are we practicing love? Because if what we’re called to do is to love, how are we actually practicing it within the group? Not just studying about it, but actually being intentional about showing up. And so for that to happen, there have to be some really specific things for us to start doing within the group: to start creating a space where those kinds of conversations are going to be had. So that hopefully by the time you’ve been together for two or three years, you actually do know each other better.

You know more about your hopes and your dreams and your failures in your hearts and your struggles. And, you know, we know each other like real people instead of just somebody we show up and do a thing.

Kay >> So I know that because you gain so much from the 12 Step program, what elements can you pull from the way that those groups work and put them into other small groups. What do you think is essential that you did in those groups that we need to be doing?

Lynn >> Good question. I think that one of the things that needs to happen early on is the group needs to have a very clear purpose and some guidelines for how they’re going to operate. And so what is our purpose here? Is our purpose just to study, okay, do a Bible study, and that’s where we’re coming, Okay? This is why we’re coming.

But if we’re really coming because we want to grow spiritually and develop connection and intimacy with each other and with the Lord well, then we need to start having some conversations about how we can interact differently to start fostering some space for that to happen. So once we’ve done that, I think that one of the most important things that happened when I was in recovery that I saw happen in those meetings was that they established some guidelines. And they were very specific. And they were important to put in place because what we want people to start doing is to be willing to show up and be authentic and to be honest and to be vulnerable.

And if we want people to do that, then we have to create a space that people are going to feel safe. And so for them to feel safe, you know, we really need to have some things in place that are going to be helpful. We have to be able to have people that are committed to confidentiality really number one. So that whatever I say here now, I’m not going to hear from everyone else that is a friend of yours that you have gone home and talked about.

And so I think that we don’t always recognize how important it is to keep a confidence when people are sharing things that are there deep on their heart. Right? And so if we’re going to be willing to talk about our struggles or if we’re going to be willing to talk about our questions that we have regarding what the Word says, our struggle to actually put that in place, and to believe that that’s who God is, then we have to be willing to keep confidences.

And we have to learn how to not be judgmental we have to start practicing the fact that we’re not called to judge other people. We’re called to live life together and to point people to Christ, but more how can I help you grow in your faith with the Lord by being honest and open with you, but also being a companion. And I’m going to share my struggles and you’re going to share yours. And we’re going to talk about those.

And so now I can maybe see how somebody else walks out their faith. How did you get through this difficult time? How can you give me some help for something that I’m struggling with? Probably if you hadn’t been willing to say that, you know, you’re going to keep this confidential, wouldn’t have necessarily been open to sharing.

Kay >> And it’s also about I mean, there’s all of this and a lot of this is like the protection aspect of being a shepherd, that the leader has to teach this to the group so that they’re protecting the individuals from anyone else in the group.

Lynn >> Absolutely.

Kay >> Hurting them. And one of those things is keeping the group from not jumping on somebody or trying to fix them when they do share these things, isn’t it?

Lynn >> Yes, absolutely. Because unfortunately, maybe because it’s how other people treated us. Or it was because of other groups we were in, or we thought it was what was expected of us is to fix someone else’s problem. So that I can very quickly come up and give them a scripture or a new book to read or, you know. Tell them how they should do something differently instead of being able to first listen because most often people aren’t really heard anywhere.

They’re not really listened to. And so for us to the leader and the people in the group to learn how to listen to what’s really being said. And ask questions more out of curiosity and not just jump to giving a bunch of answers. So help me understand help me understand what you’re going through. What is the struggle? Why are you feeling this way?

Have you talked to God about it? Or is God saying anything to you about that? Are you feeling led in any way by him? Is he trying to teach you something? Or do you feel like he’s encouraging you to step out in some area of faith that maybe you haven’t been willing to do? How can we support you in that?

You know, those are the kinds of conversations I think we want to be able to have that can happen in safe places that don’t necessarily happen in groups with people who aren’t safe.

Kay >> Yeah, absolutely. So do you as a leader talk about those kinds of guidelines before you ever start the group, or do you wait until it comes up in the group and then suggest that “Let’s just listen to her?” Tell us how that actually works practically.

Lynn >> I think it’s probably both. I always think it’s better because to actually explain to people and talk through it with the group to get a consensus about this is how we want our group to operate. Do we agree this is who we want to be for each other? And if this is who we want to be for each other, then are we willing to say, “Yes, I’m willing to practice confidentiality. I’m willing to ask more curious questions and listen? I’m willing to consider that I don’t have all the answers and really allow someone and encourage them to go to the Lord?”

And so I think talking about those things in the beginning is really important so that everybody kind of understands that this is how we’ve kind of covenanted together to operate as a group. And then we can then move on to when things start happening in the group.

Then it’s kind of incumbent upon the leader or the shepherd when he sees somebody stepping in and talking over someone or trying to, you know, change someone or fix someone that he can kind of step in and just say, “Okay, you know, remember we sort of agreed that this is how we want to be to each other. And I’m sort of sensing we’re moving into a little place of trying to fix. How can we come back and maybe just ask some questions or be more supportive?”

Kay >> And I know that’s hard for some leaders, but if you see yourself as a shepherd that you’re there protecting and caring for those who need you, those who have strayed, those who are weak, those who are vulnerable, and they’re sharing all of that. Then you need to care for them particularly. And that might involve being a little bit uncomfortable, you know, sort of butting into somebody who’s talking over them. Right?

Lynn >> Yeah. It can get a little messy, but I think that it’s not unlike when you’re in, you know, living in a family. You know that you have to sort of confront things sometimes when they come up and when we’re not being kind or respectful. So I think you do the same thing within the small group. So you have to have someone who’s in a leadership position who’s willing to take that on and take it on from a perspective of I’m here to help Shepherd. I’m not here to try to tell anybody how to live their life. But I am here to try to guide us back to being in alignment with what we’ve sort of agreed to do and how God, we feel like the Lord has called us to live with each other. And how can we learn to be more accepting? How can we be more supportive?

How can we be more encouraging and challenge people in that way? Versus just allowing the group to kind of become somewhat chaotic and at times can create some real hurts.

Kay >> Yeah. Yeah. So how do you know if the group is starting to really gel and grow together?

Lynn >> Well, number one, I think that people keep coming. You know, I think that people don’t come to things anymore if it’s not something that’s important. And it’s important to them, if they feel like they are connecting and they are growing and then they will continue to show up. So I always can tell if my groups are working if people come, then, okay, we’re making some real progress.

But also we’re sort of growing with an understanding and a knowing of each other, a much deeper knowing of each other than we’ve had before. I really know kind of what some of your hurts are. I know how you struggle maybe with your mom or with your teenage daughter. I really hear that in your conversation and I’m really praying for you and support trying to support you in that.

So our relationships are actually growing deeper. It’s not the same superficial. “Hi, how are you? I’m fine. You know what’s happening in your life and well, I went to, you know, carpool today.” But now, I mean, we’re actually having conversations where I feel known and you feel known and we feel like we have a place to go, to be honest and to say I’m really struggling.

The reality is I have led I don’t even know how many groups, and I have counseled so many people. And honestly, that just the deep desire of their heart is to be known and just be able to be real.

And they don’t feel like they have a lot of places where they can do that. And it’s really sad that as the church, this is what should be what we are and who we are as who Christ has called us to be. And yet some of us can be just, you know, some of the worst offenders of putting up some barriers to love.

Kay >> Right. Well, I know that like in the Bible study that I’m in right now, as the leaders, we have not been given enough time to delve into some of this. It’s just that that’s not the small group time is not really the focus. And so it has created a bit of a burden in figuring out exactly how to gather the group and find other ways to connect, to really get to know each other and those kinds of things.

So I do think there’s some ways to work with them individually as well. How have you connected with maybe some of the women who’ve been in your small groups outside of the group itself? So that you’re pouring into their lives as well?

Lynn >> Yes, I realize that, you know, when I was involved in women’s ministry that that was a continual challenge because we just had again, everyone has limited time. And so we’re here to do Bible study or whatever wasn’t enough time to connect. So we really encourage people and the leaders to meet as a group sometimes without it being for the purpose of it.

Some other time go to lunch, you know, after your group meets. That’s a really often easy thing or just have people have bring their lunches and they stay and we eat together and then just talk and share and really try to connect that way. Or outside of that, you know, have coffee with somebody. Unfortunately people are not going to want to hear this, but it’s going to take time and intention.

And honestly, if you’re going to be a leader, you really need to set aside time. This is not something to be an effective leader that you can do quickly. It takes time and intention to say, “I kind of sense that somebody in my group is really struggling. Maybe I’m going to reach out and see if they want to go to lunch or if they want to have coffee.” And not just send them a text.

I mean, because we all get lots of texts, but for somebody to actually sit down and get in front of us and say, “How are you? What is going on with you? Tell me about you.”

And even if it’s just something to celebrate, you know that. But that you’re recognizing there are things happening in people’s lives that we want to acknowledge and we want to have a meaningful connection.

I actually had a, you know, a situation where I was in a small group and they had this policy of the small group leader kind of reached out and like phoned you once a week.

And so I always ended up getting home from work and I’d have this message and it was, “Hi, how are you? You know, I’m from, you know, whatever. I hope you’re doing well. Contact us if you have any needs for prayer, blah, blah, blah, whatever.”

Well I never did that. I mean, I had lots of needs for prayer. I had lots of needs and things that I could have used some input from, but I wasn’t going to just pick up the phone and call this person who I didn’t know hardly at all and say, “Would you pray for me? Or I’d really like to, you know, really would appreciate some input on the struggle that I’m having right now.”

And we were so unconnected. When I ran into her again a few years later, she didn’t even remember I was in her group. And so, you know, that’s the inauthentic part of it.

Sometimes I think people they pick up on, you know, are you really a devoted leader or are you just kind of doing this, as you know?

Well, I’ve got some time somebody said I could lead. As you were saying, I was in a small group and somebody said, “Oh, why don’t you lead?” Well, yes, but you’re not doing a service to your group if you’re not really present. And allocating the time and energy to doing it.

Kay >> Yeah. Yeah. And that’s the reason I wanted to read that passage about Jesus saying, you know, he lay down his life for the sheep because if you’re really going to be a shepherd, there’s just a certain amount of your time you have to give give up, not just going to the group meeting, but outside the group meeting.

Lynn >> Right, right. And I think it’s helpful if the shepherd calls upon other people in the group too. This doesn’t have to be just the shepherd link that, you know, there are people in the group who are really gifted in different things. And so to really have people be involved and connected and offering their gifts in different ways so that it isn’t all about, you know, the leader has to do everything. But the leader is at least trying to make sure that it’s happening.

Kay >> Absolutely. Yeah. I you know, I think about a lot of the one another’s in the New Testament, and it seems to me that that’s what a small group is supposed to be about. And some of those are hard things like confessing your sins to one another.

Lynn >> Right. Right. And we talked about that some earlier that in 12 step recovery, those are some of the things that we learned to do early on. And that part of and for many of the groups that I lead now, that’s something we do like right in the beginning. Even if it’s in our prayer group, you know, we always we don’t go into prayer without, you know, confessing and trying to at least ask for forgiveness for ourselves before we go in and pray on behalf of someone else.

And the same thing is true is if I’m getting together in a group Bible study, “What is it you want to bring to the group today that maybe you want to confess to just bring before the Lord and ask for forgiveness?” Because it’s such an important, critical part of us walking in freedom that Christ wants us to have and that we are learning to be forgiving people.

People who love also forgive. Forgiveness will heal more of the things that are wrong with us than anything else that we can do for people.

Kay >> Now, Gary and I are in a small group now that our whole agenda is really just delving into how our walk with the Lord is going. There’s no Bible study. You know, we pray some, and we have certain questions that are were asked every week. And one of them is where have you fallen short in your discipleship this week?

So every single week we’re being asked, you know, what do you need to confess to the rest of us that has happened in your life and it’s been a really good group to be in, very different from the other group that I told you about at the beginning of our conversation. This group is concerned about our spiritual lives. This group is concerned about what’s going we and we talk each week about what are we going to do this week?

What’s going on? What’s happened this last week, what’s, what’s coming up next week. And it’s been a really good thing for us. And we feel more connected with these people. We’ve been doing this almost two years now. We were with that other group that I think we ended up three or four years with them. Right.

Right. You know, they were just people we knew.

Lynn >> Right. But now. Well, but not well. Right. Yeah. And I think that once you start getting in with a group like this where you’re talking about the things that you’re really wrestling with, you know, that I’m having real doubts about, you know, the Lord’s ability to, you know, step into this situation and to give me the strength I need or to, you know, to provide some hope for this struggle I’m having with my kids, whatever that is.

But that to have a place where you can come and talk about that and be open about it and confess your doubt or confess your fear, and just to have the opportunity to say that this. Those are the things that have been binding us and keeping us frozen and not able to really receive what the Lord is doing.

And if you have people that are challenging you in that way and say, well, tell me about that, what is that that’s going on with you and how what is it? And maybe you can start looking for where might you see the Lord working? Because nobody asks us that, right?

And we just get really busy in our lives. And I’ve got all these problems, but I’m not really noticing where is the Lord working? Because he’s probably working in big and small ways all around me, but I’m just looking for him to work in this like one thing.

But if I really stop and consider gosh, I’m becoming a lot more patient. Or I just really didn’t react and to not fly off the handle the last time I had to deal make have a different conversation with one of my difficult kids.

I’m changing. The Lord is changing me.

Some of the circumstances that I wish for change aren’t changing but the Lord is taking more ground in me. And that is the bigger issue, isn’t it, for all of us? Are we being conformed to the image of Christ? And so is this a place where we can talk about that, encourage each other in that walk versus getting so stuck in talking more about whatever else we want to focus on?

And we have lots of groups, you know, for those kinds of things. But for me, being able to be with groups of people who really want to talk about their faith and their struggles in this life and how that can be so meaningful and life giving and life changing for people.

Kay >> Absolutely. And, you know, I believe in Bible study. I mean, that’s what I have spent most of my life doing. But I think that too often we have just restricted the time so narrowly that it’s very hard to do this unless a group stays together for many years. And which is the way I like groups to do.

I’m not crazy about the changing groups every year or every six months or something like that. But I just don’t think you ever get what we’re talking about here.

Lynn >> Yes.

Kay >> With that kind of group, you think you can spend time if you’re really applying the scriptures as you’re going through them.

That’s going to bring out some things if you’re being honest with each other. If you set the stage for it, we’re going to be vulnerable. We’re going to be honest, and we’re going to really talk about when we come to these questions. This is going to be an important part of what we do here. It’s not going to be just what did Jesus say? It’s not going to be just the factual things.

It’s going to be how does this affect you? What is Jesus saying to you from this, from his words here? What does that mean to you? How is that affecting your life?

Lynn >> Right. I think that that’s so true. And you’re right. It us being able to find groups that are willing to commit to that. There aren’t a lot of them. And so, you know, I think that the fact that you have a group like that is wonderful. I’ve actually been in the same community group now for 18 years and thankfully over the years we have really grown and changed and ultimately we all ended up going to recovery together.

So we all started understanding about the concepts of being honest and vulnerable and being broken. And that we’re just as broken as each other and that we can talk about some of those things. And we can talk about, okay, so what is how I feel like Jesus has challenging me in this way? He does call us to confess. So, okay, I’m going to, I’m practicing that.

And he does want us to repent. So what would it look like for me to repent and how can I ask people around me to maybe help me support me if I want to go in a different direction from what I have been doing, that I need that support and encouragement from people around me and in my group.

There are other people in the world who have no idea that I have those struggles or that I’m finding it difficult to make choices in my life. But hopefully we are in a group where we do have a group of people who know those things and are praying for us and are really encouraging us in ways to support us, to make hard decisions and hard choices.

Kay >> Well, I wouldn’t just encourage the leaders out there to really picture yourself as a shepherd of your group and think about the things that we have talked about today. And if you’re in a situation where you know, you’ve got sort of some guidelines and you only have a limited amount of time, find ways that you can be the one to step out and be vulnerable about these things, because I think that will open up your group.

And if you take advantage of time outside of the group to continue those kinds of conversations and one-on one-conversations, I think it can make an enormous difference.

Lynn >> I agree. I mean, I think there is some of the groups, like Bible study groups, that even meet on a regular basis or try to get together and just really not only go a little deeper in what they talked about in their Bible study, but also now start applying it. “Okay, this is the part that I was really struggling with and let’s talk about that. And then let’s kind of connect on levels that we weren’t able to within the study and within our time at church,” or wherever we were. I think it’s a very important part of the reason why the Lord said it’s important for us to live in community.

We’ve got to live and be able to live in community and it’s going to be messy. And I think that’s also why people avoid it. They’d just as soon not go there because it’s going to be messy because people are messy. We’re broken. And sometimes we get angry and sometimes we get sad and sometimes we do things we shouldn’t.

And so when you get into that part of people’s lives, it can get a little messy. But honestly, that’s really where we want to be. And I think that shepherds can help set the tone for that. They can help create the space. Or they can start a group that that’s providing some of that. As you were just saying, you’ve got a new group now and that’s kind of what you are doing.

And so, you know, consider whether or not you want to start a group like that, these the guidelines of what we think we’re trying to accomplish. And we think that this would help us grow in our spiritual life. And is that something that, you know, find people who would be willing to do that.

Kay >> Well, how would you challenge your audience before we go?

Lynn >> You know, I think I would challenge my leaders first to just say, do you feel equipped to lead? And if you’re if you’re just feeling that you haven’t really gotten some of the training, then go get some training. That’s available. I mean, everything you probably need to know about leading small groups is available in various and sundry places on the Internet or sometimes our churches offer training sessions for small group leaders. They’re great and they’re very helpful.

I think the worst thing we can do is assume that we already know what it means to be a good leader, because generally, we don’t. There’s always more we have to learn. And I love to go back and look at the Gospels and just see how Jesus was with the people. You know, he just was with them. He didn’t spend all of his time, you know, trying to preach some high doctrinal truth. He was just trying to help them get through their lives.

So I think just getting some more training if you need it, and then calling your group together and saying, “What do you think about this? How do you think we could maybe make some changes in our group to go about, you know, pursuing a little bit more authenticity or a little bit more time to have hard conversations?”

But, you know, give yourself some grace because you’re not the only leader that doesn’t know how to do this.

I mean, becoming a shepherd is something that the Lord is going to take a lot of time to build into you. And studying the Word and just praying and asking the Holy Spirit to lead is so important because we don’t know how to do this. I don’t think that people have taught us well how to lead groups.

Kay >> Well, I don’t think we’ve had many examples.

Lynn >> Right. Yeah, we haven’t, you.

Kay >> Know, are just talking about the groups we’ve been in that didn’t work and I found a lot more of those than I have groups that have worked. So it’s not like we’ve been able to watch somebody do this well. And that helped us but I appreciate that challenge.

We do have some other podcasts on small group leading that I would encourage you to connect with on our site BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

And Lynn, tell us just a little bit about your book that you wrote and how that might be helpful to some of the people out there.

Lynn >> Well, I appreciate you bringing that up. I wrote Steps Into God’s Grace a number of years ago when I was in and was leading recovery. And I really wanted it to be a foundational book for helping groups practice all these things that we’re talking about.

Basically it’s a Bible study. You get to study Scripture, but at the same time, it’s a workbook. You work together as a group, preferably as a group, and really learning about what does it mean to be vulnerable, what does it mean to, you know, practice things like an examination of how is my life looking as it compares to what Scripture is saying? And what are the things? I feel like the Lord may be leading me to change. What does it look like to practice some confession or repentance or forgiveness.

So it really will help people in groups learn how to walk through and practice being more vulnerable, being more honest, being more authentic and really putting to action many of the principles and disciplines that Jesus expressed to us as he was walking on this earth.

So I think it can be really helpful. And I’m always happy to help people. There is there is a leader’s guide, so people just don’t feel like there’s enough direction. Or I’m always happy to meet with leaders to I have a number of different groups of people. I had a lady in a group here in Dallas, and just recently I got an email from her she had gone back home.

She is from Jordan, and so she’s now leading two groups in Jordan. And just getting to hear, I get to connect with them on Zoom sometimes and getting to hear their stories and how all of our struggles are universal struggles. You know, it’s not just we Americans or we people that live in Dallas or the people that attend our church.

It’s these are universal struggles with all of us finding it difficult to walk out our Christian faith and know what it really looks like to start practicing these things and living in community together.

So I would just encourage people to check it out.

Kay >> Where would they be able to access your book?

Lynn >> On Amazon.

Kay >> Amazon.

Lynn >> Yes, on Amazon.

Kay >> And again, the name is Step into God’s Grace by Lynn Hoffmann.

Lynn >> Yes.

Kay >> Great. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been great. I always enjoy talking to you anyway.

Lynn >> I know we’d love to just get together and have coffee. It’s great.

Kay >> We do. We do. We have good conversation. So I look forward to the next time we do that. And thank you for sharing, really just such rich teaching that you have incorporated into your life. And in helping to teach other small group leaders to have that same kind of heart, that same kind of spirit, and that same sort of sacrificial attitude toward those in her group. So thanks again.

Lynn >> Oh, sure. Thank you again for having me, Kay.

Kay >> Oh, I loved it.

Lynn >> Great.

Kay >> See you all next time.