Episode 41 - "The Nightmare Before Christmas"

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we have a fun little episode exploring Tim Burton's 1993 film "The Nightmare Before Christmas." In this episode, we discuss our theories about the psychological motivations behind Jack and Sally's behaviors. We use the characters of Oogie Boogie and Lock, Shock and Barrel to explore the diagnoses of oppositional defiant disorder (ODD), conduct disorder, and antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). And we find ourselves wondering - is the Mayor supposed to depict bipolar disorder or a shady politician? We also discuss ways to talk to children after traumatic events like sadistic toys ruining your favorite holiday! We have a lot of laughs along the way and hope you enjoy this spooky episode!

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Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode this spooky month in October. Today we are covering The Nightmare Before Christmas, which is a Tim Burton movie. It came out shockingly in 1993.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think that's shocking, Portia.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I am shook. Why? I thought this was like, new. I don't maybe like Max ten years old, and this is almost as old as I am.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You didn't watch this in childhood?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Never seen it before. Watching it for this?

Dr. Katrina Furey: You never saw it before?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Not once. What? I just never got the draw.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's always shown right everywhere. Like the holiday season.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's why we're covering it. And it's a classic Halloween and Christmas movie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So my childhood, because I guess this is a childhood ish movie are like Pumpkin town. Do you ever see that? It's on Disney.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay, so I like those one through three. Hocus pocus pocus harry Potter yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Which we'll be covering in a couple of weeks. Maybe next week.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe it's already out.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stay tuned. So I don't know, I've never, ever seen it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow, that's wild. I thought for sure when I recommended this you had seen it. Wow. Interesting. A lot of questions. I've seen it a bunch of times in childhood. And now, as a know, we watch it every year. When we went to Disney World recently at Halloween time, they have a whole Mickey's not so scary Halloween party with Skellington. Like it's like a big deal.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Scary though. Like your kids aren't scared of the movie?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think at certain parts a little bit, but not really. Which I also think is interesting because I also think it is like a spooky movie. And there's also now we have a couple of the children's books. People would gift them to us over the years, and one of them talks about Jack's Sleigh getting shot down. And I always make up a different word for that at that point because I feel like that's a little too much. But there's certainly spooky elements to this movie and scary elements like kidnapping the nefarious, sadistic know. So it is really interesting that kids aren't globally, I know, terrified of it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And like, Jack, at one time, I think he's honestly the least scary, but he bears his teeth, right? And does a scary face. And I was like, oh, yikes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's very Tim Burton. It is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's just not my huh.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So what are some of your questions? Like, why did I make you watch.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Are we talking about this? No, I'm kidding. I guess just why is it so popular? I know I'm very well aware that other people can like things that I don't. And I'm probably honestly in the minority, maybe minority for this movie, but I just don't understand the draw, really. I think it's scary.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Were you scared of sin at all? I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I just felt like a little watching it. Really? I watched it at night, which doesn't help anything. But I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's like a short movie. It's a cartoon. The animation, I think, is unique. And I would imagine back in the 90s, especially unique. When you think about Disney animation at that time with Beauty and the Beast, Ariel Aladdin, it was just very different. And again, kind of like we talk about in our Harry Potter episode, there's something about the darkness that I think people are drawn to, even children, right? Like, you experience dark feelings as part of being a human. So maybe there's something about it. Where? In Halloween town? I mean, all kids celebrate Halloween, unless maybe you're very religious and you don't dress up or something. But most American children in our culture celebrate Halloween, and kids love it, but there is a spooky element, but that kind of adds to the fun. So maybe there's something about that darkness that resonates with you even as a child. At the beginning, they're all just like being their old Halloween selves and just like, really out there.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, I'm easily scared. I am not a fan ever, even in young 20s, late teens, of going to a pumpkin. Right. What are they called? Like a haunted hayride. I don't like that because I think the actors always know who in the crowd is, like, the best victim. And it's always me.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's always you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I've been traumatized at people jumping out at you theme parks. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They have Halloween things like, it's scary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I've been chased and I hate what do you think you cut down trees with?

Dr. Katrina Furey: No, like, axe murderers, shovels chainsaws. That is really scary. Yeah, no, I'm not into that either. I wouldn't volunteer to go walk around and be scared. But I do like this movie. No, I totally hear that. So you're not maybe an adrenaline junkie? Like you wouldn't skydive maybe?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I think some people get a thrill from it, like their dopamine, and adrenaline is just, like, pumping.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's, like, good for them. I think it is a safer way, right. Getting it in, like, a risky way.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's true. That's true. So I guess I thought this would be a fun movie to talk about. A, because it's a classic, apparently, this news to Portia, but allegedly it's a classic. It has, like a really interesting. Like, I didn't realize until just now that Catherine O'Hara is the voice of Sally. I think Sally's a really interesting character. I feel like even if you walk around home goods nowadays, you see Jack and Sally coffee mugs, jack and Sally salt and pepper shakers. Like it's in our culture that's always like a cool Halloween costume to dress up as Jack and Sally as like a couple's costume. Now you're in on it. Maybe you'll be Sally for Halloween. We'll see danny Elfman is the singing voice for Jack Skellington, who's the main character. And then Chris Sarandon is his speaking voice. I didn't know they were two different people. Me know peewee herman. Paul Rubens plays one of the little boys.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Locke.

Dr. Katrina Furey: We'll get into lockshock and barrel in a little bit, like stuff like that. Like the names of the little boys, right, are a know. But I thought this is just such a cool movie, I guess because A, I love Halloween, I love Christmas. It combines them. And I just feel like it's all about being yourself and being happy with like we see Jack, he's the what is he? The Pumpkin King of Halloween town. And it starts off with know, they're celebrating another great Halloween. And you see him rise up from the fountain in that initial song. I think the music is really good.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think the songs were clever and catchy and sweet, some of them. Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think the music has likely contributed to why it's so popular because it's just beautiful music and we see everyone celebrating. But then Jack goes back to his haunted house where he lives with his ghost dog, Zero and seems kind of like, okay, do it all again next year. He seems kind of bored and not really into it. And then all of a sudden he discovers Christmastown and wants to become Santa Claus, basically. And tries but does a really poor job.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I thought it was like I mean, again, I'm not trying to be a hater, and I'm really not, but I thought that when he's dropping off all the presents, it's like traumatizing.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He thinks he's doing this wonderful you know, at his core, he is not Santa.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And so he's bringing all of these literally terrifying gifts to the people of.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The world, the children.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know, they're literally like running after.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Them, trying to eat them, trying to strangle them. It is pretty frightening. But he thinks he's doing good and his intention is good. So it is, I feel, like, an interesting commentary on how our intent might not match how our actions land and how that's important to acknowledge for the other person. And then he sort of comes back to himself and accepts that that's who he is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Santa says Happy Halloween. Which is sweet when he's flying over them. Yeah, that is they kidnapped him and attempted to murder.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, yeah, I know. And I guess that's where Jack did order that, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No. Was it?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oogie boogie? Who was it that ordered them to go capture?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Capture? I think he just wanted to meet him, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, I thought he wanted them to hide him so he could be Santa.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, I thought he just was getting, like, tips and then Jack or Locke's Shock and, like, took it know?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Um, so it's just I don't know. It's interesting. What do you think about the dynamic between Jack and Sally?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I wanted more of a backstory on both of them. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She seems like she cares a lot about him, and it's like, why? Did you previously have a relationship? Are you just kind of admiring him, as everyone in the town seems to do? He was caught kind of off guard, it seemed like, because she was showing him a lot of care, a lot.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of affection, and she was always there when he was in a bind and needed some help. I was confused by that too. Like, at the end, when they kiss, I think that's a classic scene, but I was like, oh, they could have just been friends. They could have been siblings. Like, I don't know. But it was surprising that now they're in love. I think it is also kind of classic for the time. But Sally, we see her literally take parts of herself off to protect him, which I also think is an interesting commentary that the girl is sacrificing parts of herself to be there for the guy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think you could talk about internal family systems with that, right? Like, parts theory that's not really about your body parts, but, like, internal parts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think it's, like, just the.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Symbol of her sacrificing parts and herself and going to great lengths, like, throwing herself off the tower, sewing herself back.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Together, poisoning her father, the Doctor Finkelstein, aka Frankenstein. Yeah. Who I guess was the father. I didn't pick that up until we were reading a little bit about it. I thought he was just, like, an evil scientist who was holding her captive. It now really creeps me out if he was her dad.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's what it says. Like, I don't think that's clear at all in the movie, so you're right. I think it feels more strange and.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, dark if it's her dad.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think Sally is like a character that's just really, again, popular in our culture and helps Jack out, but also tries to caution him. He sort of wants her to make his suit. Jack's very demanding, now that I think about it. But she's like, Jack, this isn't like you right. You don't look like know when he puts on the beard, and he doesn't.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Look like that sense of impending doom. And I'm like, is that anxiety.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or like yeah, you're listening to your gut. Very unclear.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So she does not want him to go to the world and be Santa. And he is taking charge of Halloween Town, so he know everyone in on it. Everyone's making toys or an aircraft of.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Trauma and torture, but what they think are toys because they're spooky and creepy to them, these are funny. These are toys. But it's interesting how I don't know. I guess you could even interpret this through maybe like a cross cultural lens. Like if Halloween Town is one culture and Christmas Town is a different culture, and what it's like to try to.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Assimilate I like how they accidentally captured the Easter easter Bunny. And unfortunately, the Easter bunny. Right. Like, didn't they just take him to Oogie Boogie?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, they didn't send it back. In my mind, they send him back. I don't know. Maybe I'm rewriting that story because it's too dark.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Either way, what did you think about Oogie Boogie?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He was scary. I thought it was interesting at the end that he's just like all bugs.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. That's the part that really creeps me out. Even to this day when I watch.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It, I'm just like, oh, he was definitely dark. And again, yes, I'm aware that children's stories, especially fairy tales right, can be dark. My favorite being Harry Potter, which gets progressively darker, which I think is as I get older. We've talked about that on the episode, so feel free to check that one out. But it just felt like really spooky. Like he's bad. He's a bad guy. Also made me think of the Grinch. Right. Because of where he is. You get to him through all these pipes. He lives away from everyone garbage. Not really, but in a sense, yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And why in a town like Halloween Town, where everyone is spooky and creepy and you might say weird, you might say different. I did like how they all just look so different from each other. Like, you got the vampires, you got the kids, you got Jack and Sally. There's just like all these different types of people all living harmoniously in their creepy way. So why is Boogie, like banished? I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe he took it too far. Somebody always know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe he's the criminal of the town or something. Like maybe he would jack's nemesis, too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I wonder if they grew up together. I wonder if Okie Boogie's kind of like in the jail of he. To me, I feel like is really a good depiction of sadism, or just being very sadistic. Like putting all the people he captures on that. What do you call that circle thing that's like spinning and they're going to die and it's like very table. Yeah, that's what it looks like hanging them.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, it's like it's really sadistic.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Talk about antisocial personality disorder. Yeah, there it is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Like an oogie boogie. But then he's also kind of like mesmerizing when he's like singing and dancing and serial. Yes, he totally sucking you in. Yeah, he had a beautiful singing voice.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: With you before you ultimately get killed.

Dr. Katrina Furey: For his own pleasure. Creepy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So then we have the three little.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The three little kids. Lock, shock, and barrel. What'd you think about that?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They were like, naughty, to say the least. I think we have both criteria kind of laid out of conduct disorder and Odd.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oppositional defiant disorder.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That first word always gets me oppositional, which and there is a difference. So it feels like meet more criteria for conduct just because there is that level of physical cruelty to people, physical cruelty to animals. It's a step further with actions often and intent than Odd. So, like, just a little rundown. Oppositional defiant disorder, it's like behavior lasting about six months. It's not just a temper tantrum.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This is in children, right, is when we diagnose it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Children and teens, they lose their temper. They often argumentative with adults. They defy or refuse to comply with rules or requests. They can deliberately be annoying. They blame others for their mistakes. They can be easily annoyed or touchy. They get pretty angry or resentful, and they can be spiteful or vindictive. So where it kind of becomes conduct disorder, so often there's first a diagnosis of Odd, which in its path to ultimately, I'd say, like antisocial personality disorder is an important diagnosis just because it kind of lays the groundwork. However, there is a big shift in the field with just overall less diagnoses of Odd. So you see a lot of typically, like, black youth coming into treatment with an Odd diagnosis, I think, like overly diagnosed and misdiagnosed.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. In certain patients of certain backgrounds. Some might call this racist, and I think it does get over diagnosed misdiagnosed in certain situations. Like when perhaps there could be some trauma going on. Absolutely. There could be add. Sometimes Add and Odd go together. So it is important to get an accurate, well rounded the child could be going through a big transition.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe their parents parents are getting divorced or something.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's good to ask why. Right. When did the behavior start? And maybe asking the child or the teen right. What's going on in your life? Not just like, oh, wow, you seem really kind of jerky right now and you're not listening to anyone. There's always really a reason. 90% of the time there is another better diagnosis than Odd explains the behavior or there's just like changes going on right. That they're reacting to. So that's where in the smaller, more rare cases that Odd then goes on to become conduct disorder. It's really what I would describe, at least in my understanding and experience with it. It's kind of like you get that icky feeling, your feelers go up. Yeah. This child, and I hate to say this or this teen is off in.

Dr. Katrina Furey: How they see the world and how.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: They view others with their empathy or lack thereof. Oh, absolutely. Lack thereof. We talked about this in our episode.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we've talked about a couple on you. I think it came up.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We talked about this on the whale.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Kind of with the daughter, back and.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Forth with his daughter because there is some, we think, like alluding to animal cruelty.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So that's a big one.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's a big symptom with conduct disorder. And I sort of think of it as like when you have a patient who is committing crimes, often we will look to see, does that person meet criteria for antisocial personality disorder? Which unfortunately, I think increases their chance of committing more and more crimes because they don't have empathy or respect for how their actions affect other people. And a lot of times they get off on hurting other people, so they're not going to stop. And then if you trace it back, you will often see they did meet criteria for conduct disorder in later childhood, teenage, early adulthood, and then earlier than that probably met criteria for oppositional defiant disorder. So it's like most people with antisocial personality disorder will meet criteria for those things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The other way is not correct. True. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like if you maybe meet criteria for oppositional and defined disorder, that doesn't mean you're without a doubt going to meet criteria for antisocial personality disorder or be what we call like a sociopath. But once you get to conduct disorder, you start to get more nervous that that could happen. In my experience, when you see teenagers harming animals, like cats, birds, dogs, when you see them setting fires, when you see them also kind of like playing games with their peers, but pitting them against each other, they just start to sort of do these things that make you feel uneasy, and you start to see that they really struggle with empathy. And by that we mean like being able to put themselves in someone else's shoes and imagine or understand what it would feel like to be on the receiving end of an action. And they might get off on hurting people or animals.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And there might be there oftentimes is like a trauma underneath that. And I would say noting kind of back to the odd over diagnosis is like, you could argue that someone who is in a gang could meet criteria for conduct disorder. That's not the case. I wouldn't diagnose someone who's in a gang with conduct disorder. But you could be doing the same thing. So it's like that same question of like, okay, what's going on in your environment culturally? What's happening around you? How do you survive? Right? And so a lot of people sometimes have to do horrible things to survive because they think they have to do that to survive. That's not conduct disorder, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's where I'm like do Locks, shock and barrel meet criteria for conduct disorder? Or is this just like the norm in their culture of Halloween town? Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So some of the great point.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Criteria for conduct disorder are frequent bullying, often starting physical fights, using weapons, physical cruelty to people and animals, theft with confrontation of the victim. So it's not like stealing gum from the store.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's a good one.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like armed robbery, being out late without permission, truancy from school, vandalism, breaking and entering, frequent manipulative, lying, covert stealing, forced sex, deliberate fire setting to cause harm, and running away from home overnight. So this is pretty severe. This is pretty severe stuff. And again, I don't remember off the top of my head how many criteria you have to meet or for what period of time, but I'd imagine, like, odd. It's persistent. So just like odd. Again, there's that time criteria of six months. It's not like a child going through a hard time or having some tantrums or just bullying.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We should not be doing it's, obviously, of course, unkind. And some people bully and they absolutely do not have conduct disorder.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I think, again, a lot of people or children with conduct disorder have also been abused themselves. And they sort of become the abuser because that's what they've seen. That's what they know. That's how they finally feel powerful over someone else when they have felt so victimized themselves. So it's so complicated and complex and hard to treat and hard to sit with, I think, as a provider, trying to help patients with these sorts of things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Totally. So we also have the mayor of Halloween Town. He's a silly one, so he has two faces.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This is really interesting. They sort of flip back and forth really quickly depending on it seems like what he's feeling, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So it's like happy or distraught. And it's almost like what comes first, right? The feeling or the spin? And then he reacts that way. I think I'm using almost in a way that we kind of often critique people talking about bipolar, but I don't know, he has these two moods that kind of go back and forth sometimes. Maybe lasting the full day, maybe lasting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Two weeks, maybe lasting rapidly, spinning back and forth. Some mood label. And also, I think he's the mayor, so he's a politician. And I think a lot of people feel like politicians are two faced.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's kind of like a funny little jab, I guess. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But he's an interesting it's like I guess he's the one in power, but it just seems like Jack is all.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: The jack is like the king and then there's the mayor almost, like in.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like is this like Parliament versus the royal family?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Seems like it like the royal family is in some ways differently beloved to them. And then Parliament is like, you know, the nitty gritty, who you're voting for? So I don't know. Jack's probably always been around. I wonder who was like, do they go on to rule together?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Is that like William and know? Maybe.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Could be.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe. And who came before. Like, what do you think was Jack's backstory if you had to fill in the gaps?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't like was he ever alive or was he always a skeleton? You know what I mean? You see a reef yard and then you see his dog who's a ghost. Who's a ghost. But were these ever I mean, they must have if I'm thinking scientifically. Or is this where you go? Is Halloween town like an afterlife place?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, that's an interesting idea. Or is it just like a different world? And that's just what they are, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Was he ever a child or was.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He always just a full on adult skeleton? Right. I don't know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because you do see the kids there's the kids here that way forever.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Where are the kids parents, right? Why are they, like, running around with Okie Boogie and acting kind of like being taken advantage of? Which, again, I feel like getting back to kids with trauma or odd or conduct disorder, they can also be victimized at much higher rates, right. Because they're just at risk. They're in more harsh situations. Again, a lot of times, even if they meet this criteria, they have a history of abuse and so they might be drawn to feeling cared for or even just like, given attention, even if it's bad. Right. Sniff that out. Kind of like the chainsaw wielding people at the haunted hayrides could sniff out. You were the one to scare. A lot of times nefarious people, like sociopaths, can sniff out who is vulnerable to getting pulled in and they really get off on that. So it's like it makes me nervous. Like, where are their parents?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So let me ask you this. If you are living in what we know as kind of like regular world and Jack comes by for Christmas and drops off some of those gifts, how are you and your family coping with.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The aftermath of oh, my gosh. Right? I mean, I think I would normalize my children's reaction to being given, like, a duck that looks cute but then runs after you with fangs and is trying to eat you, or like a wreath coming out trying to strangle you. I would just be present with validating their fear. Right. I would hear what they have to say first, try to put words to their feelings and also say, like, gosh, if I were in that situation, I might feel scared or nervous or worried or I totally get it. Try to help them with that. Lot of reassurance that that's over. Things are safe now. I'm here to protect you. They might be mad at me if they felt like I wasn't there to protect them and I should have been. Make space for that and sort of sit with it. That can be hard, I think, as a parent. And then I would imagine they'd have some symptoms of an acute stress reaction. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Might be a little afraid of going near the fireplace. Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or the Christmas tree.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Oh, my God.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I hope it wouldn't ruin Christmas forever. They might have trouble sleeping for a little while. I might sleep with them for a little while and kind of I would probably tell their school so that the school counselors and stuff could check in on them, tell their teacher or other important adults in their life. And then I'd have a very low threshold to seek out some type of therapy to kind of help them and help me help them and then kind of see what happens. And I think a lot of many children are very resilient. Absolutely. So the hope is that with time, they can process it and move through it and then in future years, for future Christmases, if they were showing some avoidance, I would try to challenge it in, like, a gentle way. But to again keep reinforcing, that they are safe now in hopes of mitigating any risk for a PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder kind of thing. I hope that's the right way to handle. Great answer. Oh, my God. Thanks. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think the most important piece being is just, like, acknowledging them and their concerns and not dismissing them. Right. So instead of saying, like, that didn't happen, or, that's not scary at all.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Everything's fine, everything's fine.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Get over it. You're taking the time to be like, yeah, that was really scary. Let's talk about it if you want to. And then typically, like you said, most kids are okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And if they can't talk about it yet, depending on how young they are, depending how upsetting it is, drawing with them is really helpful. So I learned this cool technique in my training from a child psychiatrist where he would sit with a kid, and I always was like, Child psychiatry looks so cool because you basically play that looks cool. But he would sit with a kid, and they'd share a piece of paper, and he'd draw a line, and he would have the child make one drawing, and then he would do the next move, and they would make a picture together, kind of. And as they were doing it, he would talk with them and ask, like, well, why did you do this? Why did you use that color? Why that shape? And just over time, it's like a nice way to do something, like, basic and safe and something like all kids kind of know how to do, like, drawing together. You get a lot out of the child. It's really hard to just sit and do, like, talk therapy with little kids, so that's an interesting way. Or just asking them to draw something and just sort of being curious about it together, I think, can be also helpful and a good way of processing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Using figures, whether it's, like, little animals or dolls or Lego characters to act out what they're feeling, they might be able. To do something with the little doll that they are not going to do themselves. Wow. Okay. Now I'm understanding more. There's so much within child therapy, psychiatry that is so special and unique. And also sometimes we use it with adults oh, 100%.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And with play, children playing. There's so much going on within their play. And I think it's really interesting to just kind of be attuned to what they're talking about, what they're acting at, what they're trying to work through or sort through. It can be really fascinating, sometimes disturbing. And I think we see with other horror movies when there's like the child with the dark drawings and they're possessed, it does come out.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks for listening to this episode. I certainly had fun being by being open now to this new holiday movie. So keep with family. We have a lot of fun content coming also over the next couple of months. So doing some silly maybe travel stuff with movies and family.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Home alone.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Chaos. We have certainly some more, I guess, traditional holiday movies coming up in December, but thanks for listening. Be sure to like us on TikTok and Instagram. We make some content there with just some extra info. If you want to check us out over there at Analyze Scripts Podcast. We do have a website and an email. If you're looking for more of a professional inquiry, we are happy to provide some information or cross podcasts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So check us out and please reach out and let us know what you'd like us to cover next and what you think about this movie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: If you're like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Portia is totally freaked out. If you're like me, who can't wait to watch it every year. All right, see you next Monday. Bye.

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Dr. Katrina Furey: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Don't.

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